News from Northern Cyprus

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...for the first time in a long time, i have not read two speeches one conjoined to the other, that demonstrate what makes an end to the solitudes of this people now isolated from each other so impossible three months from now, with the start of 2009.

However within the components of these speeches we have clues as to how a Federal system of government will divide the Jurisdictions, between itself and the National Assemblies which must be created for there to exist a Bicommunal nature in our politic, a Principal we are commited to as a State.

the issue of missing persons
education
Cypriot Patrimony
"property issue", the displaced
isolation

these are issues that are important to both parties, albeit from different perspectives.

"As the Turkish Cypriot side, we want to establish a new partnership state in Cyprus, based on the political equality of the two peoples and which is composed of two constituent states of equal status. We believe that Cyprus could be unified under such a framework and that we can stand before the world with a single international identity", says Talat.

Christofias said, that Turkey must contribute to the process in a positive way, adding that he expects Ankara to rise to the occasion and fulfil its obligations arising from its efforts to join the EU. Turkey refuses to recognise the ‘Republic of Cyprus’, which joined the EU in May 2004, and has yet to open its ports and airports to Greek Cypriot flagged vessels and aircraft, as demanded by the EU.

thus: two National Assemblies, one State; three governments, one Cyprus.

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The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind...
Williams James (1842-1910)

WHAT A MESS

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... whatever the form, I can only see this Qualification (TC or GC) as a way for the authorities (as a single government bicommunal State) to serve this newborn better in the future.

The child is born Cypriot. Many have attested to this in this thread, through their own identity cards.

...having any other choice is what surprises me., (same, same, other)
and if, for whatever reason, two Greek Cypriots decide to claim their child is Turkish Cypriot in another incident, has society a reason to restrict this choice, should it consider promoting these values for its own diversity, or should it act to defend these individuals and their Freewill (simply put) against malice.

zan, it seems you want a perfect system by pointing fingers,...
very few systems are perfect.

...when a man has a panel that needs fixing, and he has many panels,
do you tell him to tear it all out,
without thinking of modernising? (and the cost)
your soul is bruised forever, mine too
there is the panel.

i do wish you would reconsider your view on land usage
at issue is redress to all the displaced, not money
acts. humility and Grace
what is better than communities reborn?
and what is wrong with enclaves?

Chistofias Demetris, a letter sent today

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=332895#332895


In our modern State, the intent of having enclaves is not segregation. Rather it is the integration of the seperate systems which presently exist. Nowhere in the Republic will there exist an exclusivity which limits residency. However, the Jurisdiction of the National Assemblies will have an implicit obligation as a majority (as well as explicit obligations as a Government) to represent their inclusiveness as a society; providing their services in a primary language first, but with the ability to sustain an equal service, for the special needs of the minorities that are amongst them.

Enclaves will mean more diversity in each culture, and as a whole, Cypriots can see themselves as a socialistic people. In the most cynical applications, enclaves will become development projects by these governmental authorities for a monetary gain much like profit. However, as communities they will still grow and distinguish themselves with their own unique identities.

Magnus and O (who knows my views already) my first choice is quite like your own, but in a practical sense our choices exclude this option. We are the Vanguard for a kind of social engineering, and it is with this objective that we must define bicommunal and bizonal, so that other (like Palestinians and Isrealis) adversaries may have a model from which they can emulate.

Enclaves does not mean a closed society with its barriers. It has more to do with quality of life, like a township, adding to the variety we have to our pusuit of happiness in our lives.

kurupetos, why would you choose partition? is there another choice that is better?


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The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind...
Williams James (1842-1910)

good will gesture

;


Nikitas wrote:
"let me see now, Nicosia, Larnaca, Paphos, Lakatamia, Ercan, Lefkoniko, Akrotiri, all these are airports in an island of approximately 150 by 60 miles. Best goodwill gesture would be to shut all of them down, renovate Nicosia airport and rehabilitate the rest back to their natural state. Goodwill in our case is offering tangible proof that Cypriots love Cyprus and that involves practical things and not theory."

Taking advantage of this island's geographic position will mean providing for a population of 12 million inhabitants (in 200 years). Becoming this Hub, is natural in a socio-economic sense. It is why Mankind can trace its roots to Neolithic times, here, and in relation to the populations which surround Cyprus this is even more important, because few can demonstrate a Society which has a better Rule of Law and Good Governance, presently.

Having so many airports, (perhaps bigger or more in the future) is an idea which if profitable, may mean enourmous revenues for the State (and its partners) from them, directly, but the consequences some time in the future will require this "point" to be supra militarised, so that yes, for travelers all over the world, they will say, "transfering in Cyprus", (rather than an Airport's name,) going to anywhere ...

...think positively for a second, Turkey, a member of an EU that is 50-100 years older, Jerusalem at peace, and across the wider shore, Africa, free from hunger. Nice picture for us to live in, where we are, huh?

...now imagine the affects of Global Warming (and Ocean Acidification), how will we survive as a desert?

We must become "big" enough in any case to make our island a garden.

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The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind...
Williams James (1842-1910)

II. HRISOSTOMOS: ‘WE MUST NOT BE AFRAID OF THE PARTITION’

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enclaves in the north for Greek Cypriots living in them, returning as communities. enclaves in the south, a demonstration of the same Goodwill, and to make peace as a demonstration of our respect for Basic Human Rights.

Two National Assemblies, equal in their Rights as Jurisdiction, each with territories where they provide a Service for its majority, through self representation, first for having the capacity to sustain themselves, and with a sense of respect for inclusiveness, able to serve others with the recognition of many minorities, providing for their special needs as well.

in such an environment, a State is called for which Unites us as this island's dwellers, its People, and its Stewards, which is strong, counterbalancing the bias of its demographics to set Universal Standards, now and in the future, to have the capacity to represent as one People, the People, as Cypriots, to defend us as Sovereign in our choices and our rights, and to defend our Individual Rights, with Rights, within a Community.

three governments, ...as Bicommunal as you can get.

go ahead, divide the island into plots, make the deal somewhere between 18-30%, but please, don't do it because its good for "Turks" or "Greeks", do it because it makes all our lives better; more mobility, more expression and most important, more association.

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The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind...

Williams James (1842-1910)

ECHR: CASE OF SOLOMOU v. TURKEY

Turks in bushes, Turks on the balcony, shots from three directions, civilians with handguns, no show (riot police?) of force in numbers, others injured after the fact by indisciminate shooting, sounds like Turks were prepared for the demonstration in a manner which could only provoke a riot, that could end only with a death.

Turkey denies, Turkey ignores their own lack of discipline, Turkey learns nothing from the incident and allows their "image" to tarnish. Turkey's reform is in stagnation and it is strangling their ability to become a Global partner.

Without the investigation (or Justice), the Army and the State demonstrate an inability to expose incompetance (and/or Criminal behaviour), toward their own betterment. For Turkish citizens, this is important.

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The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind...
Williams James (1842-1910)

Cypriots cannot run countries

...here is the Modern Condition: an identity to State, as well as to Nation, this the crux which must be defined for our good governance as persons, as well as individuals; an Identity as People, along with an Identity we call our own.

If the world is preparing to change, toward forms of governance which suit Mankind's mobility, Bicommunality becomes very important in this consideration. Cyprus will play a very important role in its definition because we are at the advent.

Quote:
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16772
...I know it will never happen, but as "perfection", tell me what is wrong with it, what is more Just?.

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The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind...
Williams James (1842-1910)

Politics and Religion ... Anathema to Both!

i fear God, this i choose. the rest of living is acts, and knowing "the way".

When I am afraid of anything else, i know that this fear can be conquered, and I embrace the changes in myself, with this Grace. (I know, to serve is to be grateful with His gift, that I have Love to give)

Religion and Politics are the same, when they are described as two faces of one coin, gravid images of a power larger than themselves (ourselves); where we came from and where we are going to...

...in my mind, Politics and Religion, (so far) are anathema to God. but i am lucky, having been introduced to Religion by way of the Greek Orthodox Church i like socialistic, and in that sense as well, it is blessing that in Canada my education expanded so that the experience is enriching with other believers, be it Atheists, Wiccans, Native People, Buddhists, etc., in a purpose that is Universal, which includes my own Freewill.

Only recently, in all of Mankind's history, with the Modern Age, have we begun to define the word Humanity. Wrong and inhuman, with the slaughter of millions in the First World War, a generation gave their lives in this Horror, knowing, believing that as Men we could no longer fight ourselves.

"LEST WE FORGET".

And in our Humility, Charity, as Humans, like THEM, we must fight with our life against the real enemy: Hunger, Disaster, Ignorance (now 'Global Warming'), and Disease.


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The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind...
Williams James (1842-1910)

The British Bases.

Muzzy, thanks for this debate, it is interesting.

...i think that the British Bases are an anomally which can serve a higher purpose if the intelligence they gather there is for our security in an event where the region faces threats. If they are to remain, they must reflect a policy which allows for our cooperation with Turkey, England, and NATO, partners with Cyprus to effect this work.

Turkey's "guarantee" is spurious, its credibility is suspect, because it can be seen to be self-serving. Your fear of "Greek-Cypriots", may have validity, but for the same reasons, "Greek Cypriots" fear the overwhelming size of Turkey. Turkey may have a presence on the island that is welcome, even militarily, but it requires of Turkey a recognition of a Sovereign State, which as equals apply themselves to a common goal.



The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind...
Williams James (1842-1910)

POLITICAL EQUALITY IS CRUCIAL FOR TURKISH CYPRIOTS

If there is a United Republic of Cyprus, which identifies it citizens as equals, Sovereign, in its defence of their Individual Rights and the land, Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots through two National Assemblies can find the expression of their indentity as Persons to effect their behaviour as Societies. United all the dwellers stand for
Human Betterment, and apart, they will demonstrate this resolve, as their own distinct majority, in effecting these changes with their own abilities, in providing for the special needs of all minorities amongst them.

...a "northern" economy can exist, just as a "southern", however, with a better redistribution of the land, by adding enclaves to the geography, we will add to the diversity of each economy as constituent bodies. rather than tearing the island in two, we allow ourselves a chance to have no "border", although many frontiers, greater Freedom of Association, more Movement and Expression, restitution for Turkish Cypriots and for Greek Cypriots reciprocally with the return of all displaced a right, while for some return as communities, and homes for Settlers not houses, to those who will be displaced, and who have this claim by being Cypriot.

scary, huh?

Cyprus is an island. We are merely its dwellers, its Steward, whether we identify our selves as something else as well, we are Cypriots. There is dignity in that, by our Grace. This island's trees, rocks and relics, are far more important, than the pleasure we can get from it in a lifetime. It may be that our influence remains, one way or the other there is a price to pay in any act we choose, but our intention is far more important.

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Cyprus: three governments; one Capital, Free.

The Turkish Cypriot failure at Buergenstock.

the Bicommunal conundrum is this: where is "Greek" first, and where is "Turkish" first.

...i suggest the line stays where it is and enclaves are added to the geography for the redistribution of the land, so that Two National Assemblies provide for the Citizen's displaced, and those that will be displaced, can have a sense of Justice with what is offered to them; so that in this defining act we can act as equals, in a strong central government, which defends us as Individuals, and is Sovereign in protecting our Individual Rights.

ONLY GREEK CYPRIOTS VOTE

...from a position of strength, one defines their demands, in an adversarial politic.

miltiades is suggesting that it is possible to break this viscious cycle, with a debate which seeks in its resolution, our realisation that in Principal we are not enemies, we are this island's dwellers, and in acts, a demonstration of our desire to unite in war against our own Ignorance, to better ourselves, against the enemies, Hunger, Disease, and Disaster.

GR is more brash, and practical, who in this debate represents the status quo.

that said, my comment again would be that there exists an equlibrium, which having a dynamic, moves. neither can sustain themselves alone, it seems a Law of Nature, (but the politics can change itself), and they find their function within a wider system. yet:

you choose,

by acts alone does this machination work.

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Cyprus: three governments; one Capital, Free.

One Response to “Northern Cyprus and Northern Kosovo

One Response to “Northern Cyprus and Northern Kosovo”
repulsewarrior Says: May 3rd, 2008 at 4:08 pm

…the people of Cyprus can identify themselves as Cypriots, I hope, because it is an island afterall. Like ‘Kosovo’, the history of the place is far more complex than the Interlocutors would have us imagine. I can only hope that the “easy” solution of tearing this island in two is not the agreement they come to, and as in Kosovo, my hope is that the people who share the land and its Patrimony respect the efforts of those who left this Heritance, in an effort toward betterment, embraced the change within themselves to be as Individuals united in an inclusive State, while as Persons sustaining themselves.

Bi-communal in the greater Serbian context requires the efforts of Bosnia (Herzegovina), along with Serbia, as well as Kosovo, historically, if we are to compare apples with apples. As in Cyprus, or in the Middle East (Jerusalem), the land and its identity has evolved to have many facets. Two levels of Government will successfully realise the goal of People as Nations in these context. Unlike the Nationalism which is at present demonstrating our intolerance, the Nationalism of Ataturk and the founder Napoleon III, will provide for us an identity where our distinctions add to our sense of unity, because we choose to stand together, for our attachment toward our own governance as equals and to the land’s relics.

Cyprus/Turkey image: Acts; to be seen and Justice

...if there are mosques in the south
that are no more... then allow them
to be included in the shame.

of course there is
no God, and in faith there seems
to be only a Creed, and yet
your acts VP surprise me ...so dogmatic.
it is tragic because the
wealth will be divided
with what you plea
what makes our island
rich will be broken.

are you a Cypriot?

desegregation: see manifesto: for your consideration

I don't disagree with you OP, but to facilitate integration, beyond desegregation the balance requires the consideration of people as Individuals and as Persons without the bias which comes from overwhelming majorities. The distinctions act as a countervailing force against extremes. It is a cumbersome political system, compared to the purity and simplicity of your desire, except that the population of Cyprus will have to grow in to this one, while it defends all of us equally, its characteristic of sustaining a Greekness and a Turkishness will have no affect on the Government's credibility in terms of a Cypriot's representation.

King Assassinated Today

Martin Luther King said that you can never stop. His tactic of non violence grew to a boycott which for month's on end would not sway, provoked, his house was bombed, his wife and his daughter, he remained unswayed, until he was shot in 1968. Does the civil rights movement exist? It is there, and it has changed the lives of people all over the world. He is gone, he gave us this dream, that Freedom would Reign from the mountaintops everywhere, along with the mud flats of the Mississippi. And along with his own inspiration, Mahatma Gandhi, we share in these acts if we choose to.

In Cyprus I have only been grateful that the mayhem we see around us in our region is not reflected in our daily lives with more murderous bloodshed, without bombs, and lacking the alarm from this terror which occurs other-where. It is this Hope for Justice which binds us, we have all suffered, i think that each in our own way do not want a military on the island, and i hope we can live this doctrine as an example of what is possible if we believe.

I put this topic in the Cyprus Problem discussion because we need to reflect how to bring about change. We need to be inspired because this is the time for change. The appalling silence of good people who must make this change in the face of people of ill will is a demonstration of how intolerance can make better use of time. There is no good time and no bad time for action, he said. Mr. King's fight for integration is not won, even if there is desegregation, his cause for HumanKind's betterment is far from over because the cause of this Ignorance remains.

Our fight continues, and on this day I would like you to reflect, on how you can demonstrate this commitment to non-violence yourself.

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The greatest discovery of my generation is that a human being can alter his life by altering his attitudes of mind... Williams James (1842-1910)

Cyprus: three goverments; one Capital and Free.

Here’s the “demilitarization” program Cyprus REALLY needs...

[quote="Oracle"]

[quote="repulsewarrior"]mighty military strength here is not a bad idea if it serves a purpose which goes beyond national borders. There are enemies of us all which needs the battle hardy: they are hunger and disease to name two.[/quote]

I am intrigued to hear, how mighty military strength can be used to fight the battles of hunger and disease.[/quote]


ella OP use your imagination...

the one thing that we have as people is the service we can offer others.

geographically we are the strategic launching point for three continents.

human tragedy, mayhem, and natural disaster are all around us.

these factors, along with the socio-economic factors that make being Human an alternative to plunder is at its advent. don't you think that the authority of the UN and like minded States would not find it inviting, this island, as a post?

to say the least, NATO in its European context would be well served by this location for the work they do against terrorists. our military forces, along with Turkey's, and others, like Greece and the US are better serving their interests when they build amongst themselves the lines of communication that working as allies involves. As "peacekeepers" it would be hard to imagine a "safer" place in the world.

certainly, it will be easier to build a supramilitarised capacity here, than to demilitarise the island because of its utmost importance to Turkey's defence, and because to the other interlocutors, leaving it to Cypriots exclusively seems to be entirely out of the question.

Turkey is, and will remain, in my opinion the greatest threat to all the parties that have concern in the region, with this 'floating aircraft carrier'. It has a powerful force by size and equipment, with the ambition to be dominant and to lead internationally, while its position in the geo-political spheres remains obscured by an inability to overcome the forces that oppose it, as it is risking stagnation with and inability to embrace change.

most importantly, only Malta is a smaller player, whatever 'we' can do to defend ourselves, very little can be done proportionally and by force
....although...

I think world politics is coming full circle from the denial we came to with the failings of the Great War, and the politics which came with that blind eye, ...like Grivas, a hero to guerrillas everywhere, not unlike Che who revered him, and who followed, we have Bin Laden, and his shame. all in the denial of our will to plunder as though it is valueless, life, unless it is exploited, and that it must belong. you won't get this, i know, but i'm glad to say it, i remember, i will not forget, i made that oath, to those boys who fell in their millions, for this cause, long before there was a State to think about, called Cyprus, for our Freedom, for this horror to end, through Grace. Cyprus is a way.

And it is up to us to demonstrate the Humanity that all Mankind can emulate, in their esteem.

PRESIDENT TALAT CALLS ON CHRISTOFIAS TO RESUME NEGOTIATIONS

it is why i stress the need for three governing bodies: one which is Sovereign over the representation of the people united without consideration, equal, where this State defends their Individual Rights, without compromise, and two National Assemblies, who have Jurisdiction over the infrastructure which it will provide in its territory to its citizens equally in a manner where persons, as a majority can demonstrate their respect and recognition of minorities amongst them, while they act in a manner that will sustain themselves.

partition or unity

DT. wrote:

GeorgeV97qaue wrote:
I'd still would like to know what my fellow GC's feel about question I have posed. As I stated I'd prefer a united cyprus but not the way Turkey and Talat see it. I want one government with each person getting one vote.

"What I would prefer and what I would vote for are 2 different thing. I'd prefer a democratic unitary republic with proportional representation. WHat I'd probably vote for as a compromise would be a fair bi-zonal federation with the 2 zones not being ethnically exclusive."

Please read...
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15874

...none of us will get what is. something completely different is necessary.

we are responsible for a great deal of tragedy, and as we all know there is no price that can be put on a Human, life. If we deny their love, the dead and missing, the hatred which grew to take their lives away wins. It is our responsibility to leave a Heritance, to the rest of Mankind. It has come to this: As Cypriots, as Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots, as Jews and Sri Lankans and Moronites etc. we require an identity to this island's fate.

most importantly it cannot be forgotten that, as Greeks or as Turks we have no right to its Patrimony which has existed for millenia, long before our own introduction, and I imagine, long after we are gone as well.
...as its Steward, we cannot betray this Trust.

so choose wisely, when the time comes, "partition" or "unity", because chances are that that will be the question in our next Referendum.

and as writers, i'm asking you guys, ladies and animals, to carry on with the comedy, as it is funny to read (mostly), but, to accord the most important among us, the anonymous reader to believe that we are serious, that we have at heart, the need for dialog, to create something better, perhaps which will change the world.

"prefer a democratic unitary republic with proportional representation", ...here is perfection.

"fair bi-zonal federation with the 2 zones not being ethnically exclusive",....here is OUR Quest.

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Cyprus: three governments; one Capital, Free.

The trouble is, "Greek" Cypriots aren't Greek

ufqnhd...however, there is such a thing as margins of scale; think in the long run, and in terms of living, after all, Cyprus is an island. maybe we are better off having English our Official Language, having Greek and Turkish as the 'primary' languages that this State can provide, allowing in the future for it's fluency in other languges as well. we are better off without adversarial regimes as they exist today, who occupy our thoughts with fear, and who usurp our Basic Human Rights by serving interlocutory appeals rather than the interest of the island and Humanity. This is the big difference I see with Makarios and Denktash, as leaders, and what followed; I am convinced in the two hundred years to follow, they will be revered as heros, by all Cypriots, whatever ethnicity, because in the end, their acts were for this island and its dwellers, not the Nationalism which drove them to be divided like counterweights on a scale. but both kept their eye on the single fulcrum and they were in the end united to be in its service, commited to a single cause.

It was TPap who said, as a young man, that it was impossible to imagine the island of Cyprus without a Turkish Cypriot population, that they were scattered over the whole island like grains of sand scattered over a map. Nothing more beautiful, or poetic, can be said to deduce the truth. The island requires its repopulation. Justice requires that we start with a fact like this.

i say some bad things happened, i say we got engineered, so that the sand gets blown away and the map gets torn.

I say forget about sand, scatter jewels (the enclaves), build on the value it will provide to both Societies, they (the"Greeks" and the "Turks") will provide for themselves first, of course, but they will be providing toward a population that is mobile and who's demographic can be expected to change dramatically over time as well. Although mutually exclusive, neither can ignore the other, neither can act in a manner having malice, and both are subjct to a Sovereign State, being, a reformed, Republic of Cyprus. nothing is wrong for there to exist, a Cyprus which is "Greek", or a Cyprus which is "Turkish", but for these choices to exist all Cypriots must have an identity as one, equal in their love, and equal in their commitment toward defending its Sovereignty, as an island, and as the island's dwellers, self sustaining their respect, as Turkish Cypriots and as Greek Cypriots, together, and as Cypriots, mutually; three governments, bi-communal, for their Rights as Individuals, as well as their Rights as Persons.

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Cyprus: three governments; One Capital, Free

isolation, Cypriots; from each other.

erolz wrote:

Quote:
"Getting a Republic of Cyprus passport as a Turkish Cypriot if you do not already have one anyway is a practical thing for Turkish Cypriot that wish to travel and certainly since EU entry getting such from the Republic of Cyprus has increased by large amounts. Choosing to live in the Republic of Cyprus and not the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus as a Turkish Cypriot is much more political a choice and the benefits of doing so as a Turkish Cypriot have not changed much since before Republic of Cyprus EU entry or after it. I do not think there have been Turkish Cypriot pouring into the Republic of Cyprus to live from the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus since EU accession myself"

....here is the crux.

By allowing Greek Cypriots a form of representation of self governance as a majority, the State, the Republic of Cyprus, frees itself from the bias of demographics that are overwhelming. Each National Assembly, one Turcophone and one Grecophone, will serve it's citizens as equals, each will have the responsibility to be credible as inclusive societies, respecting and recognisung the special needs of minorities amongst them. The State, as our sovereign representative, in this manner becomes stronger, better able to defend us in our external affairs, and our Individual Rights.

Land is the issue right now.
Forwhich I suggest the addition of enclaves, this time without shame, into our geography: Bizonal.

Politically, the solution has been staring at us in the face since 1960. Now that ENOSIS is won, with the introduction of the Euro a few days ago, we can say EOKA is no more. I hope the TMT will be no more as well, never forgotten, but a part of the past. Denktash and Makarios can be heros, because in the end they chose Cyprus first, and I believe they wanted the best for us. But it is up to us to look at the foundation, its original principals are strong. Thus, our modernisation, and the reform of the Constitution, from it's advent is the basis of any sustainable solution. My proposal is simple and easy to understand. One State, Two National Assemblies: Bicommunal.
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Cyprus: three goverments, one Capital and Free.